I can’t lie it’s pretty fucking exciting that someone has taken then time to read what I wrote and comment on it, and it’s even more awesome because I disagree with them. In the future I’ll probably just make additional comments but for this momentous occasion I thought I’d make a whole post about it. I’m gonna quote just small portions that I want to respond to so if you wanna read their original comments check out my last ten posts or so.
In response to ‘12.09.2009‘:
“This theory of “Survival of the kindest” was evolved to allow humans to effectively form small tribes. You can see how it breaks down under current conditions. Go to a small town and observe how people interact. Now go to progressively bigger cities and observe. Notice a trend?
It’s ultimately selfish anyways. You give now in the hopes that your benefactor will repay the debt later. This is just delayed gratification greed. Humans are animals, sophisticated animals, but animals none the less.”
It’s not necessarily selfish. You’re right that a lot of seemingly good deeds are done with the hopes of eventual repayment, but not all. When someone gives a homeless man money, or sends food to Africa, do you really think they are expecting to get something back? Maybe they do it because they get a good feeling back? I guess in that sense we are all greedy. Anyways, genes that favour non-reciprocal altruism spread because the more an animal learns to take care of other animals like it (that likely have many of the same genes), the better chance that species has of surviving and the better chance those genes have of surviving.
In response to ‘79.9% interest on credit cards‘:
“Survival of the fittest at play in the monetary system. Social Darwinism is a good thing.”
Well Social Darwinism is a pretty broad topic but generally, no it’s not a good thing. It’s an excuse people use to abuse others.
“If someone is foolish enough to borrow at such interest rates, let them. No one is forcing them, it is their choice.”
Not true. Many people are forced to borrow money in order to live, and if these interest rates are the only option available because of bad credit or whatever, then it’s hardly a choice. This isn’t everyone but it is some people.
“The fact is that materialism is at fault. People are in debt because they are trying to keep up with the Jones. They have to put on a big image. New clothes, BMW, plasma TV, 95% of the debt out there is unnecessary. I am not going to shed one tear for those who can’t handle a bit of delayed gratification.”
You’re right, many people aren’t forced, and materialism is often at fault. So we again have to go to the root cause of the problem. Why are people materialistic and greedy and unable to live without a plasma TV? Because our society creates perpetual dissatisfaction through advertising and creates greed through the use of monetary economics. If there was no structure in place to support greed, it couldn’t occur (I could go into way more details on this but I have a feeling this is already gonna be a long-ass entry).
In response to ‘the eyes of love see us all as one – bill hicks‘:
“The technological singularity is coming. Unfortunately we are the weak link. If we ever hit that point, any logical entity will see what must be done.”
Yeah, I’m pretty much sold on the singularity myself. I’m assuming when you say ‘what must be done’ you are talking about the eradication of humans. This is ridiculous. Nothing could be less logical. All that would do is cause a huge loss of information, diversity, and novelty. And since we will likely merge with our machines, we will be the logical entities, and we will be able to discover new ways of living in harmony with nature. Eradication is the easy way out, a three year old could think of it. I think superhuman intelligences will come up with something better (especially since regular human intelligences do it all the time).
In response to ‘mark out for murderers‘:
“Having spent a couple years in prison myself. I am highly amused.”
I’m glad I could make you smile.
“Humans of the time would live in small tribes, where they would know everyone in their tribe. They would be loyal to their tribe, their survival depended on it. They would be fearful of the neighbor tribe, or any unknown… We have our neighbor tribe manufactured for us by our government, by some imaginary lines on the globe. We definitely hate them.
What happened? We have been taken out of our natural environment. We have (been put)/(put ourselves) into little cages. We run on our treadmill every day to get our food and water. We are prisoners, all of us, and we don’t even know it.”
Definitely. So, now the question is, how can we fix this? Putting people in prison doesn’t fix this. We need to work out ways of alleviating these root causes.
“Now, back to nature. Killing, stealing, and rape are natural!? They are, for the tribe over the next hill. Humans are territorial just like apes. We will kill our competitors when they threaten our resources. We need those resources to survive!”
It’s a natural response to our environment, for sure. So we need to improve our environment.
“Next time you feel united against the Terrorists, the Arabs, the (Emmanuel Goldstein)propaganda of the week. Just remember, that’s your tribal instinct that is being manipulated. Manipulated in order to get some of you to kill. To get soldiers to defend the megatribe.”
I don’t feel united against anyone. We’re all humans and I recognize that at every level. You are completely correct though, many people are manipulated.
“Nowadays, we segregate ourselves into little tribes anyways. Whether you are the alpha female of the local knitting club, or the president of the US of A. You are part of some little tribe. Funny how we can’t overcome our nature.”
The only thing I would change is that we haven’t overcome it, not that we can’t. Many people have, and we need to look at how and why and spread those types of situations to allow more people to overcome these tribal instincts.
“All of these little tribes are part of the megatribe. You and me. Together somehow, even though we don’t know each other. Those soldiers in Afghanistan died for us, for our megatribe. They don’t know us. The brainwashing runs deep.”
And we’re all part of an even bigger tribe called humans and that’s why this is so fucking ridiculous.
“Most of us don’t personally kill anymore. However, millions of years of evolution can’t be unlearned. Up until recently, you had kill if you wanted to eat meat (and you very likely NEEDed to). Now some man in a factory does the dirty work for you. But you are still left with the evolutionary instinct of killing.”
I don’t see any reason to believe we have an evolutionary instinct to kill. We have an instinct to survive and an instinct to eat, and in the past killing was the most effective way to do those things. Killing for the sake of killing is not an instinct sane people have.
“We are so removed from nature that we don’t even look our meals in the eye anymore. And before you interrupt with the vegan/vegetarian POV know this: we were born with canine and incisor teeth for a reason. The human animal was meant to eat meat. It is natural.”
Common mistake. We, like apes, evolved mainly as herbivores. The teeth are nothing like the teeth of large cats and other animals that actually evolved to eat meat, our teeth are clearly made for chewing plants. Also, the efficient way our digestive system handles fruits and vegetables compared the inefficient way it handles meat biologically shows this. No natural meat eaters have to cook their meat, their bodies are made to process it. Eating meat was not really a thing humans did at all until the invention of fire, and until the invention of farming, we didn’t eat much of it. (read more here)
“In order to survive, something else must die. The strong survive, the weak perish.
If you think about it, there can really be no other way. If the weak were allowed to thrive along with the strong, what would happen?
In the short run, we would have a socialist utopia. Everyone would hold hands and sing kumbaya.
In the long run, the story is much different. The weak would pass on their (weak) genes to the next generation. As a result the species as a whole would get weaker. Eventually it would succumb to disease, starvation, or a superior way/species. I hope I don’t have to spell out the details. Nature is the superior way. It is not nice, but it is fair.”
This was true in the past, until we evolved to gain consciousness and therefore capable of innovation. Biotechnology and Nanotechnology promise to strengthen our species in immeasurable ways. In a way, we are transcending darwinism.
“The emperor has no clothes! Man is enlightened in nature! Bullshit. We need to acknowledge that we are part of nature, not above it.”
Here here.
“We need to get back to our roots. The sad part is, that none of us would be willing to give of ourselves what this transformation requires. No matter, it will happen eventually. Nature demands it, it will happen eventually.”
No we don’t. Going back to anything helps nothing. We need to move forward. It might happen that we destroy ourselves and ‘return to nature’, but it doesn’t have to happen.
“I am not afraid to kill my own meal. I am not afraid to look it in the eyes as it dies. I think this is the ultimate form of thankfullness to nature, to my prey. At least it got to live a real life, unlike on some factory farm.”
I’m not afraid to kill my own meal. I have no idea how to because we as a species have surpassed this need. Good for us.
In response to ‘universal basic income‘:
“In order to provide a basic income someone has to toil.”
“In order to provide a “universal basic income” someone has to give away some of their toiling. They have to give away some of their life.”
No, somebody doesn’t. We can eliminate toil easily through the use of automation, innovation, and applied technologies.
“We all provide a basic income for ourselves. We have to work. We sell a small portion of our lives in exchange for money.”
A large portion, actually, a huge portion. I know that we provide basic income for ourselves. This is what I’m against. It is no longer necessary.
“Typically it’s not a choice. Governments take by force to redistribute. If you don’t pay your taxes, someone from the government will come and take it from you by force. Hardly “free and equal”. They will put you in jail, if you resist, they may kill you. This is socialism.”
Well, that’s a bit of a simplified explanation, but sure, you’re right. It’s a good thing I don’t support socialism (well it’s better than capitalism, but hardly an answer to our problems), at least not in any traditional sense of that word.
“The truth of the matter is, everyone can’t live at the north American standard of living. The planet doesn’t have enough resources. It’s a cold and hard mathematical fact. We would need another dozen mother earths to provide enough resources for us all to have such luxury.”
We can all live above the North American standard of living. We can’t do it if we waste resources the way North Americans do now, but through the intelligent management of the worlds resources, we would have more than enough. I can elaborate on this as well, but look into a Resource Based Economy.
“Artificial scarcity is no joke.”
No, it’s not. It’s killing our planet and our species.
“The best system would allow equal access to achieve, based on merit and hard work, to get at the resources.”
Nope. The best system would allow equal access to all resources based on a person being human. This is achieved, again, through the creation of abundance by intelligently managing the earth’s resources.
“You have to work to survive. The weak die. End of story.”
True in the past, but we have the means to overcome this. Resource Based Economy.
“It would be foolish to think that in a few hundred years, us humans, have outwitted billions and billions of years of nature.”
Disagree, there is plenty of evidence to show just that.
“Capitalism isn’t fair, but it’s a lot closer to nature. And it works.”
You call this working? Fuck that. Reality check dude.
In response to ‘open-mindedness‘:
“An athiest requires just as much faith as a devout Christian, Muslim, or Buddhist. The truth of the matter is that an athiest must require as much FAITH to disbelieve in god as a theist must require to believe in god. Why? Because there is no proof of god, but their is no disproof either.”
Sick of hearing this. It’s fucking ridiculous. Just because something can’t be disproven doesn’t mean there is a 50/50 chance that it’s true. There’s no more reason to believe in god than there is to believe in invisible flying spaghetti monsters (to use an atheists favorite example). Unless you count yourself as agnostic towards every completely irrational possibility such as this, then you are a hypocrite.
In response to ‘youtube – amazing speech by war veteran‘:
“I completely sympathize with [this video]. However, being Malthusian, I must disagree with it.”
So, because we are on the verge of over-populating this planet, you are in support of the senseless killing of thousands of innocent people that makes absolutely no dent in the rising population anyways? That is fucking sad. Why not educate people on the dangers of unchecked reproduction? Why not think of new and innovatinve ways to increase the carrying capacity of the earth? No. Lets kill people.
“As much as the present enlightened era denies it. We are all racist. Blacks, Asians, Whites, Purples, are all equally racist. It is bread into us. We root for our own tribe. The ones who wear the same war colors. Have the same skin color. The same military. The same border. The same language. The same sports team.”
It’s not bred into us it’s taught to us and we can overcome it. And we are not all racist.
“Most of us cleverly hide our racism; afterall it isn’t fashionable these days.”
Maybe you have to do that. I don’t.
“We seek to compensate for some sort of wrong of the past. We do this by discriminating against the opposite.”
Yeah, it’s pretty dumb, isn’t it?
“Ask yourself this, if Barack Obama was white, would he have even made it into the presidential primaries?”
Probably, because he was backed by the banks and is one hell of a public speaker.
“Essentially, a man was elected, to control the most power nation on Earth, because of his skin color. Because it made people feel good.”
That is your determination and nothing more. There is absolutely no basis in reality for it. And I’m not an Obama supporter, if you think that’s why I’m saying this.
“This explains the soldiers guilt, white guilt.”
Did you even listen to what he said? He feels guilty because he killed innocent people in a war fought for corporations. It has nothing to do with white guilt. This is an insane statement.
“Now lets discuss war. War is necessary.”
Yeah, something that helps absolutely nothing (least of all population control) is necessary. </sarcasm>
“We are on a planet with limited resources. Currently our oceans fish stocks are being depleted, cropland is being lost, and fresh water is running out. What alternatives are available? Barring some serious technological innovation, not much.”
The intelligent management of the earths resources. Living in harmony (in a purely sensible usage of that word, no creepy hippy underpinnings) with nature. Aligning our actions to nature. Recognizing the symbiotic aspects of our existence and taking them into account.
“We could redistribute the resources equally among all. Nevermind that in the long run productivity would drop.”
Productivity would be raised if everyone had the ability to contribute.
“Focus on the shift in standard of living for me and you. Say goodbye to your vehicle, the computer you are reading now, most of your possessions.”
Goodbye vehicle, lets use sensible transportation instead. Look at how much resources are wasted on cars that sit idle 95% of the time. I refuse to say goodbye my computer because I refuse to believe there isn’t enough silicon (sand) and some kind of casing material to build a computer for every person, that’s ridiculous. Same goes for most of my other possessions. Are you saying there isn’t enough cotton to make everyone some clothes and a bed, or enough raw materials to give everyone a tv or two? Ridiculous. There are enough resources in all the worlds dumps to give everyone all of my possessions and more.
“Say hello to a new diet, gone are most meats, processed, convenience foods,”
Good.
“and out of season fruits/vegetables.”
Hydroponics and other advanced cultivation techniques. Seasons need not affect the growing of plants anymore. We’ve beat nature in that regard.
“We don’t know how to do anything anymore. Can you sew/mend your own garments? Can you garden? Fix your own tools? Make soap? Tend Animals? Fuck that, most westerners can’t even cook anymore. When we do cook we are wasteful, throwing out nearly as much as we consume. We can’t labor anymore, we have fancy machines to do even the most modest task. We have become fat, self-entitled, and lazy.”
Exactly. We don’t need to do any of those things. We can focus on more scholarly and intellectual pursuits. This could easily be a reality for everyone on the planet.
“You won’t be able to afford to be wasteful anymore.”
We can’t really afford it now, so, good.
“The GDP of the planet is around 60 trillion, per capita that is about $9000, everyone will get to work a fulltime job at $4.50 an hour, regardless of the effort you put in. These sorts of systems always seem to collapse when applied to anything larger than a small town. When you don’t even know your tribe members, it’s hard to give it all for the collective.”
Yeah that would be a shitty system. Lets instead use a Resource Based Economy.
“Another option would be population reduction, sounds evil. War, eugenics, and stuff that sends Alex Jones into a rant. If the population was somewhere south of 500 million, human life, at our present standard of living would be sustainable.”
500 million is a BS number based on our wasteful management of resources. It’s a good thing we don’t have to ask these questions.
“War is the current method of choice. The strong exploit and kill the weak, just like on the nature channel.”
Like I said, war has hardly curbed population growth. And we have the ability to reason, and therefore transcend our friends on the nature channel.
“This is thoroughly disagreeable to most people who are removed from nature. They see it as evil, they vehemently engage in diatribes over it, while they eat their sterile packaged dinners.”
It’s disagreeable to anyone with a conscience and a basic understanding of science. Yeah, packaged dinners are no good for health. What does that have to do with anything?
“They act so enlightened, they don’t even realize what they would become if their creature comforts were taken away.”
I realize what I would become. A mess. Doesn’t change the fact that what you’re talking about is evil. Rather than focusing on what would happen if our comforts were taken away, let’s focus on how to get these comforts to more people.
“Close the stores, shut down the electricity for a few weeks, let them get cold, hungry, and scared. They would revert to being animals quite quickly. They would lie, steal, and kill soon enough, hardly a true enlightenment.”
If you torture people, they are going to act badly? You don’t say? What does that have to do with he validity of their views? Nothing.
“It’s funny watching people stand and applaud in this video. That is all they are good for, if they knew the true sacrifice they and their families would bear the audience would be a lot thinner. As Milton Friedman said “None of is greedy, it’s always the other fellow…” These people in the audience have no clue that their luxurious standard of living (which they see as status quo) depends on the exploitation of the weak.”
They don’t have to sacrifice anything. Our standards of living only depend on exploitation within this current system. This is why we want to change the system.
“The strong exploit and kill the weak. As tragic and unfair as it seems, it is the only sustainable way. Anything else leads to debasement and extinction.”
No it’s not the only way. The intelligent management of the earths resources.
“You are reading this because your ancestors were the smartest, meanest, and best on the planet. You are healthier because of it. Those who killed, cooperated, and planned the best passed on their genes to us. We are the descendants of the best killers on the planet. The strongest tribes expanded to fill the lands. Now the strongest nations secure their place for future generations. This is the natural order. Helping out another genetic strain can only weaken your own. That is a natural law.”
I answered all these falsehoods in my response to your comments about ‘survival of the kindest’.
“What would happen if war ceased?”
All the people fighting in it, hurt by it, planning it, etc, could be put to the more productive task of solving problems rather than causing them.
“Even today, with our fancy medicine. We keep people alive whom nature would have taken. As a result nature has bred bugs that are resistant to our medicine. Before the virus’ would only take the weak. Now we have virus’ that will kill the strong and healthy.”
And we are finding ways to overcome these new strains of viruses as well. Yay us.
“Overall we are in a worse position than we started.”
No we aren’t, we had a setback and we’re figuring it out. We’re still healthier and living longer than ever before. Besides, once we realize the value true nutrition has to our health, we won’t need all the medicines much anyways. Our immune system works amazingly well when we let it.
“The harder we push against nature, the harder it pushes back. You can’t delay the inevitable It always wins.”
It definitely pushes back, but it doesn’t always win. In fact, it’s pretty clear all over that we win. We made clothes and houses that beat the cold, we made vehicles that beat distance, etc, etc, etc.
“So this video exposes who the real ‘enemy’ is for all the young minds who are just beginning to figure out how the world really works. They are the enemy because they are winners. They are the predators. They are in the upper echelon of society. But in reality they are just like you and me. They are just more successful than us, we aren’t doing to bad ourselves. We were born into luxury. They were born a bit higher. Next time you want to see the real enemy, look around, look in the mirror. You are no less a part of the machine than them. This is nature, hardwired into us. If not, prove me wrong and give it all up. I didn’t think so. You are going to continue to try to move up, to accumulate, influence, fulfill your genetic imperative.”
People are not my enemy, the system that makes them this way is.
“All of this sounds cold, harsh, and unforgiving.”
It doesn’t just sound cold, harsh, and unforgiving, it is.
“However it is the only logical outcome.”
It’s actually not logical at all. What would be logical is using our problem solving abilities to transcend these problems, rather than give ourselves into them.
“You can’t beat nature.”
Yes we can, see above.
“In order to best thrive you have to detach from emotion.”
I would counter that any person detached from emotion is far from thriving. In order to thrive we need to be fulfilled, physically and emotionally.
“Does our death really matter? Of course to us it’s important, but I am talking about the grand scheme. Will anyone remember your name in 100 years, maybe if you are a real mover and shaker. In 1000 years? Unlikely, unless you start a rebirth cult now. A million years? The answer is no.”
The answer was no, but with our new technologies, information is starting to last longer and longer. And death is a tragedy. It is a loss of irrecoverable information. We are poised to beat nature in this regard as well.
“Everything you have touched will decay by then. In a billion years this planet will likely not harbor life anymore (we’re the next Venus due to solar radiation increases of 10%/Gigayear).”
Unless we find a way to stop this. Crazier things have happened. And who says we have to stay on this planet?
“Think you’ll live forever? Sorry, but entropy has other plans. Eventually, on some unimaginable timescale, all the matter in the universe will decay to heat. It’s unavoidable. In the grand scheme, me, you, our whole civilization, is nothing.”
Yeah, the universe will burn out. So we can’t live forever, but we might be able to live to see it happen. Also, there is some interesting science in the way of possibly creating universes. We have billions of years to figure something out.
“Unless of course you believe in the popular North American invisible sky wizard. In which case his zombie self/son is coming, to save you, soon.”
Yeah, that story is pretty dumb.
Thanks for reading, LaoTze.
